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Transcripts - Episode 05: Greg Peterson

Updated: May 26

Transcripts

Episode 05: Greg Peterson

Naomi Castro

Hi, I'm Naomi Castro, and this is the Castropod. This season I talk with college presidents and nonprofit leaders who figured out some things. What things? Big things! Important things, things that have a real impact on actual real people. And I want to learn how they do it.

So I'm in this working group with a lot of people. And we're trying to figure out how to get this pathway for engineering tech going, and how to make it work across a few colleges and like a dozen high schools. We are in it, we're coming up with ideas, we're thinking out loud, it is totally flowing. And there's this guy I don't know who's off to the side, and he's writing everything we're saying down on this really big chart. And I'm thinking this guy's good. I wonder what his job is? Well, he was the vice president. That was Greg Peterson. Greg is humble. He totally rolls up his sleeves and jumps right in and he has the big picture. So pull up a chair, relax and listen in on our conversation.

Naomi Castro [July 18, 2019]

So getting started, I am here in beautiful sunny, Arizona. It's like 100 degrees outside, we always meet in the summer, with a dear friend of mine, Greg Peterson, who is now the president of Chandler-Gilbert Community College. Congratulations. This is you're rounding out your first year.

Greg Peterson

Yup, my first year just ended.

Naomi Castro

Fantastic. But but you weren't always a community college president. We met when you were Vice President of Student Services at Long Beach.

Greg Peterson.

Right.

Naomi Castro

And you did amazing things after and amazing things before. Can you can you just kind of summarize like, what was your journey? How did you end up here? How did you start?

Greg Peterson

Well, you know, it's you how it is in the world of community colleges, there's no direct path. So we all kind of wander in at some point, and I ended up going back to high school. I grew up in a working-class community. I knew, first generation, I knew that we couldn't afford college. I didn't know anything about financial aid. And so I didn't apply to any universities.

When I graduated, I showed up at the local community college, waited an hour with my transcript to meet with the counselor. Right? So I sat down with the counselor. And I did pretty well in high school. And he looked at my transcript and he said, what are you want to be I want to be an elementary teacher. And he said, no, you don't. And 17 year old, I said, I don't? And he said, no, you don't. I'm like, Okay, so what do I want to be? And he said, Well, you'd have to come back. That's a longer conversation, you have to come back to reschedule. So that sent me on a, clearly someone with authority told me I could not be an elementary teacher so I gave up on that dream.

But I was still interested in education, and ended up wandering through, went, went to a two-year, transferred to a four-year and along that way, I ended up working this summer. factory, a furniture factory. And I worked with a group of adults who were immigrants, and many of them had education, but it didn't transfer in our country.

I hated that job. It was the worst job ever. And I saw that this was their life. And the extra shifts they were picking up. And so I grew this love for adults and adult learning, and ended up teaching English as a second language while in college, travel a little bit after and taught abroad, and then decided, I came back and worked on a master's degree until education at Portland State.

And during that time, I was working at Portland Community College, teaching English a second language and saw that the majority of my students, they all wanted a college degree. And maybe one would ever statistically make it into college level coursework, and none of them would ever statistically get a completed degree. And so I started thinking about systems and structures. And that inspired me to look into a doctoral program.

I didn't know what that meant. So I kind of went and googled it. And was fortunate enough to find the University of Texas at Austin and a point going there and learning and at that in that program, that's when they they said everyone in this program is going to be a college president. I've never thought about that before. And so I, we got exposed to a lot of presidents, we learned the bigger picture of what happens in higher education, what it means to be an open access institution. And so that that really sent me on that trajectory of then moving into administration, and into student services, I worked as a Vice President in Student Services, a couple different institutions, then spent a year as a Vice President of Academic Affairs, and then moved into this position.

Naomi Castro

Yay. And what and what convinced you to leave sunny temperate California? Arizona is beautiful, I grew up, I went to high school and college in Arizona so I say that tongue in cheek, Arizona is very beautiful, but it's it's hot.

Greg Peterson

It is.

Naomi Castro

And you're you have fair skin. For anyone who doesn't know, Greg, you're a ginger, you have fair skin.

Greg Peterson

I, I, my skin manages three colors, so glow-in-the-dark-white, red and purple that’s all I can handle.

For me it was, what I've learned about leadership is that it's a lonely path. And so I needed to choose places, if I was going to be going to become president, places where I had a support network. And I've got two brothers here in Phoenix. I looked at opportunities in Southern California where I had a network, and I looked up in Portland where I family as well. So those are the three areas I said okay, if I'm going to look at opportunities, and then an opportunity came here, and I started doing research and you know, it's about finding the right quirky, and Chandler-Gilbert is my quirky. So it was a good fit.

Naomi Castro

That's great. Yeah, and I appreciate it because I come out at least once or twice a year, and so it's close enough that we get to visit

Greg Peterson

And so we need to get you to come out November.

Naomi Castro

Yes, please. Yes, please. Okay, next time.

So in my preparation and in my like kind of learning about leadership, and I'm looking into both community college leadership, but also nonprofit leadership, one of the things that became obvious right away is that effective leaders are always learning. And so I'm wondering, is there is there some new frontier that you're learning about right now? Or is there a particular book or a podcast or something that you're like, really getting into?

Greg Peterson

I'm a hodgepodge. So I start, I start a book, read a couple chapters, get distracted, pick up something else, read a couple, get distracted. For me, the last full book I read was Radical Candor. Which I absolutely loved. And it's it's a framework for, for caring direct conversation communication, which is, especially in our district.

So Chandler-Gilbert is, it's the nicest place to work, people are so kind. And there's a sense of family and a sense of belonging, you never get a, you never get a mean email. People are just, they're just they care. And that causes issues sometimes around conflict. So when we, we don't talk about certain things because it might hurt someone's feelings. And so this idea of radical candor that you can, that you're actually doing better by people when you're honest with them. And you can say it in ways that that might, might carry some pain, because life carries pain, but that isn't intended to inflict pain.

Naomi Castro

That sounds like a good read. I'm getting all these great recommends, and so I'm going to put them in all the program notes and everything. But my list of to-reads is getting higher and higher.

I've been trying to practice mindfulness more. And I have, you know, I have an app. And it's very, very helpful, I highly recommend, but I tend to be conflict averse in certain situations, especially around work. And I went through a meditation course that was really talking about conflict as a place of growth. Like when we're pushing on the edges, when we've uncovered this, this conflict, that that's where we grow. That's where we learn. That's where we overcome obstacles. So to really try to shift my mindset when there's a an approaching conflict, to say like, you know, Oh, great. We uncovered this problem that we have. Now that we know what it is we can work through it together or we can figured this out or, you know, we can grow after this, as opposed to like the heavy chest, you know, and the the headache or the you know, whatever, so.

Greg Peterson

it's interesting I'm. So for me, I'm learning that I'm too theoretical, I think too much. And so what's helped me is really grounding myself in physical activity. And so I've done this learning, a different type of learning the last six months, I've been doing more gymnastics. And I've been learning a lot. And I'm not a flexible person. I just I so it's been a lot of stretching has been a lot of working through pain. It's been frustrating because it's not my skillset. This is not where I've been successful in the past.

But for me, it's it's a, it's a practical application to the conflict that we experienced at work. So when I’m in a moment at work, I think about okay Greg this morning. Remember that stretching remember how the stretching hurt as you went through it, but then it got you in a better place after. You know, it's, it's, it helps ground me in my thinking. Instead of getting so caught up in the moment of whatever that emotion is in the conflict, gaining some external perspective that I can relate it back to has helped me.

Naomi Castro

Oh, that sounds very helpful. Yeah, I, in interviewing different folks, at least a few of them so far have said that they they work-out just as part of their well-being as part of balancing the work that they do. One person works out five days a week another person says he works out I think every single day and, and trains and you know, some folks train for specific kinds of races or triathlon or mud races or things like that. And ever since I've known you you've been involved in fitness, what are other kinds of physical, mental things that you do that might not appear to be directly related to your work but really help you to be an effective leader?

Greg Peterson

So I, I uh, I set up routines. So I have I get my sleep. First and foremost, I sleep a lot.

Naomi Castro

How many hours?

Greg Peterson

So at least seven to eight.

Naomi Castro

Fantastic.

Greg Peterson

And it's the I know I have friends who say, how can you get how can you get your work done? Well, if I, if I sleep, I actually get more done in a shorter period of time. So ao I take that time. You know, when I was at Long Beach, I would intentionally leave work so I would schedule a workout at six o'clock, no 5:30 - six o'clock, so I had to leave work. And then I would work out, clear my mind and then go back and do a little bit more work. So really building in some of those those intentional breaks

I read something fiction, I always have something. So I, I find I was trying to do Audible, right? And listen to books as I traveled. Now a little bit more of a commute when I go into the district office. And so I thought, oh, this is a great opportunity to listen to books. And I've learned, I can't listen to nonfiction when I drive. Because I have this horrible tendency where I hear something and then I start thinking about it. And then all of a sudden that the chapters over and I missed the end of the chapter because I was processing what inspired what I heard.

Naomi Castro

Or maybe you missed your exit?

Greg Peterson

Yes, that that's happened multiple times. So I'll do so I just finished rereading listening to Harry Potter things that that I don't have to, things I don't allow me to think differently.

Naomi Castro

That's fantastic. And then I noticed I remember when I first saw you coming into a meeting with a gallon of water. Are you still doing a gallon a day?

Greg Peterson

I do. I try to do at least a gallon a day, especially in the summers here.

Naomi Castro

Yeah, yeah, that's great. And yeah, sleep and water are the I think are my personal deficit areas that I am working on? Do you track your, do you like use a Fitbit or any kind of tracker.

Greg Peterson

So I was doing, I used to just for my watch was a heartrate monitor and I would track everything that way. And then that that died and so I got myself a new Apple Watch, which I don't like as much. The tracking isn't as accurate. But I do.

I'm a little OCD. So I have an Excel spreadsheet. So I plan my week out every week and then I go back and I monitor my goals in a spreadsheet. You know, I I prep all my food every every night before I go to bed prep my food. And so the next morning I wake up and I have all of my meals for the day and I have my water set out. So, you know, I it's all the preparation in advance. I find that if it's not when I wake up in the morning, it's not just for me to take, then life happens and …

Naomi Castro

And it's tacos for lunch, yeah.

Greg Peterson

Or I just don't drink water. The you know, it's I I plan, I’m a little OCD, so I plan to be at home, so I can, you know, be in bed by 10:30. And so that's that it's it's planning in advance. So people ask me, what are you doing Thursday night? Well, I think in my mind, well I have a 10:30 appointment.

So it's, I think it's, I think sometimes when we think of work, we're really deliberate in how we use our time at work. And then we're completely unstructured and non-deliberate in how we use our personal time, and we need to be more deliberate. Now we use our personal time.

Naomi Castro

Yeah, yeah, we've talked before about being more effective, so that like, so you can scheduled downtime. Like I am, it is Sunday, I am not touching work at all. And then my mind will be fresh, and I'll be more effective on Monday. Or sometimes I will deliberately sometimes do some work on a Saturday. But it's because I know doing that, and I'll try to a lot time to it like, I'm going to give myself X number of minutes or hours. Because I know I will have a much more relaxed Monday morning because of that. So again, it's that advance planning. It's like I'm doing this on purpose. I'm not doing it to catch up, or you know, because it's an emergency or, but those things happen.

Greg Peterson

That's life.

Naomi Castro

That's life. That's life. Okay. Well, this is great.

So I actually want to move a little bit more into one of the main questions that motivated me to even start reaching out to leaders and and talking to them. And that's this question of finding a Goldilocks zone with the folks that you hire, and your institution.

So an institution or an organization, if it was, you know, in the private sector, it could be your brand, right? We have maybe an approach that makes us different. We have maybe a philosophy, a mission statement, you know, those kinds of things that are unifying. We do it this way, because we think this is the best way. The larger the institution, sometimes the harder it is to pull that together. I know one college I work with in the LA area, they have, at least their Student Services Division has an amazing approach called the cultural community wealth model, that was developed by this amazing critical race theorist. But, and so it's like, okay, we all believe that our community is full of assets, and that we're here to help them build on those assets. And there's there's some things that they're missing too, you know, and that's our job is to help fix that right or help augment that.

But but we also hire very autonomous mission driven people, right? So to, you don't go into education for the big bucks. You go into education because you're mission driven. And, and so that often not always, but often there's a high level of autonomy that's expected, or that's how they operate.

And these two things potentially could be in conflict with each other, right? This is our mission, or this is our approach. We do it this way. But then you have these autonomous folks who are like, yeah, yeah, let me just do my job. Don't bother me with that stuff. So is there how do you find that kind of Goldilocks zone? Between balancing those two or or is this a false dichotomy?

Greg Peterson

I think the so if you're focusing on the how, then it is a real dichotomy, right? If, and, and sometimes, especially when you talk at the middle management, operational management level, it's really about how, and, you know, what strategy do we employ?

When you bring in individuals who have expertise who are thinking more independently. The circle is always around the how. If you can build spaces where you're focused on the, the why, and the what. So, so for example, with my team, you know, I try to say, regularly, you know, I don't care how we get there. I'll give you that space of how we get there, but we have to get there. So let's first talk about where we're going. And how will we know that we've arrived?

I think it's one of the biggest challenges as we talk about, especially in mission driven, what's our mission to make the world a better place? Okay, I saw a rainbow today I told someone about it, I've made the most better place. How do we measure that? And when we especially in community colleges, when we're seen as being everything to everyone, then then we, we have used that as an excuse not to build in metrics, not to push ourselves to focus, to say, you know, what, it's gonna have the greatest impact for our community.

So I think that's the first base there is if we emphasize the, what's the outcome we're trying to get to, and how are we going to know we've gotten there, that then that creates space for individuals to be autonomous and working. And that's where you can say, my style is this way and I can actually have a conversation or organize this here, and it'll get me to the same result that if you do it a different way you'll get there. It also gives you space to say, well guess what, Greg? Naomi's way, actually worked twice as well as yours did. So either you rethink your model and adjust it, so if it's more like movies or you adopt Naomi's. It allows to have some of those conversations about where autonomy makes sense. And then where do we do things when we've realized that they work?

Naomi Castro

That's it. You make it sound simple.

Greg Peterson

Well you know, we don't we don't think that way.

Naomi Castro

Yeah.

Greg Peterson

So a lot of it is, is pushing ourselves to be disciplined to focus on where we're trying to go. Having the conversation about what's the greatest impact.

One thing that helps me especially in our world, is it so Chandler-Gilbert does a lot of great things. It's very innovative, but it's allowed people to be innovative in pockets. And we haven't had a structure to say Okay, so what's happened to impact? And so what do we what create? What do we create into the default experience for students instead of who is lucky?

Naomi Castro

Yeah.

Greg Peterson

And so for me, it's been my sister in law, went back to school. So she's currently in Mesa. So my trainer, I've convinced him, he's going back to school.

Naomi Castro

Excellent.

Greg Peterson

So he’s at one of the other colleges and and this is what I tried to do in my life. Anyone I touch, I try to give them you know, get them back into one of the colleges. What do, I what experience do I want them to have? And as the president, if I if they benefit for the privilege of knowing me and I'm getting those experiences, then shouldn't those experiences be the default for every student?

Naomi Castro

Yeah.

Greg Peterson

And so that's, that's what helps me when we start getting into this space of well, there's lots of great ideas, and we're doing a lot of great work I come back to, but for the people I love and care about what experience do I want them to have? And so when we talk about equity, isn't that what we're providing? Shouldn't that be what we're providing for all of our students?

Naomi Castro

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I'm sold.

Well, that also brings me to this, another kind of difficult place for college leaders, for nonprofit leaders, is when it comes to really hard decisions. And so the way this question goes 90% of the time, not in my interviews for other folks is, you know, how do you make a hard decision? You have two things that are polar opposites and oh we come to a compromise or we take the best of either one.

But reality is sometimes you can't do that. Sometimes you have to pick one among three things and they're all really good. And you can't combine and you can't, for whatever reason, right? Or sometimes you have to pick one only one of like three really bad ideas and you don't want to do any of them. But whatever parameters or constraints or mandates you have, you have to so how do you do like when you have to pick something, and and you don't have the luxury of crafting something beautiful that everyone is bought into, and it's a great, how do you do that?

Greg Peterson

Yeah, I think for me, the first piece is the authenticity through that process. I think leaders get tripped up when they feel like they have to suck up the or ignore or minimize the real emotional feelings that are in that, that you're experiencing in that.

I feel like so for example, I think the one where we have less less than stellar options happens more frequently. Or we have to choose between two less than stellar options or three less than stellar options. And I find that when I create the space that says, look, let's all be honest, we have three less than stellar options. Right? If we had all the time in the world, if we wanted to do that, you know, as I look at your minds and where your hearts are, this is not what we envisioned that we would be deciding on. You know, acknowledging that space, helping people be able to feel and, and and legitimizing those feelings around that.

It's the same one, you have to create options that we can only choose one, really taking the time to value and legitimize the, the sense of loss and not being able to do the other great thing. We don't spend enough time helping, helping individuals process through what we're experiencing. So I think that's critical is giving the space to do that.

You there's, there's different strategies for how you then ultimately you choose which one. And I think that just varies based on context and pieces. I think though, to be successful in those things, it's managing the experience.

So once you've made the decision, right, then especially if it's a lousy, it's one of the lousy option, then I own it. Right? It then it becomes the decision I made. Not that the college made, it's the and explained to people. So you know, we didn't have a lot of good options. And so this was this was my decision. That helps again, people feel like there's this truth out there, that they don't, it's okay. It's okay to be a little upset about how things turned out and still move forward.

So again, creating that space where it's okay to feel there's you legitimize feelings, but do it in a way that doesn't impede the actual progress moving forward. And too often, I think we expect individuals to turn off those emotions. Well now we've made a decision. And now we'll have to own it. So even though it's a created decision, we all know, it's a created decision. You can't tell anyone it's a created decision. And you can't feel that it's a created decision. Right? It's not the best thing in the world. And I think it's, it's fair, I mean, you can't always say this is a created decision. But I think it's fair to make sure you're building spaces where those that have to carry those decisions, can, can feel authentic, and how, how that came to be and where we're moving with it.

Naomi Castro

And there's a there's a chance, that that can be man that can be very mismanaged. Right? So, I've seen, okay, we we've taken this decision, we were almost forced into it or, you know, we were forced into making one or two bad choices, and so we made the one. And okay, so let's get everybody's feelings out about it, and then move on and pretend like it, you know, like, okay, that's done. It's a past chapter. And that can make people feel resentful. So yeah. So, so making them, managing the whole process, not just like, here's the, here's the bomb I'm dropping on you. Here's my listening session. Okay, done. But that all the process before that, is that …

Greg Peterson

Yes, so thinking about a development, a path. So that, that you're starting, whenever you're facing a big decision, you start at one point you're going to end up someplace else. So how do you walk with someone along that path till they get to the end point. And it's not, it's not the so your point A, you're going to vent, we're giving you 30 seconds, or we're gonna give you an hour to vent. And then somehow that then you're gonna have to walk by yourself the rest of the way to the end point. It's thinking through, so, you're gonna have some initial feelings now. Right? So let's, let's talk through those, you're probably going to be in some denial. And now let's get to the anger stage. Okay, so you've gone through the anger stage, and we see some venting, but once we go the anger stage, that's not the end of the process.

Naomi Castro

Yeah.

Greg Peterson

So so now we need to step back and what's the next step that will help you in the acceptance? And that acceptance should really be emphasizing you probably feel some loss and that's okay. And we're all moving through this together and we did lose something. And but there's hope for the future. It's it's helping feel through. And then to that point where I feel like I've, I've come through it, and we're now in a new position and we can start moving forward. So we're ready then to take, start where we are and move to the next destination.

Too often, as leaders, we get so focused on the, the, the area, the technical functional component that we forget, especially in education, and I would say most most nonprofits, we’re all about people. I mean, everything we spend is on people. Everything we do is for people, you know, even the non-people things we do we only do them because of people.

So, we need to we need to spend more time thinking about the experiences of people. That's how that's how we move institutions. That's how we work through innovation, how we create new structures, how we transform. We create spaces where individuals feel empowered and feel energized and safe to do different things.

Naomi Castro

They're empowered. Yeah. Fantastic.

So that was pretty heavy. We're gonna switch gears to I need to work on my transitions. We're going to switch gears to stuff that's a little bit lighter.

Greg Peterson

Okay.

Naomi Castro

Okay. You you you recommended a book earlier. So that's fantastic. We talked about routines. You talked a little bit about your morning routine. Do you make your bed in the morning?

Greg Peterson

I do.

Naomi Castro

Yeah.

Greg Peterson

I do. So I am. So I wake up. Especially I've learned as a president. Life always happens. So I work out in the morning. So I wake up at 4:20, I lay, I lay everything out in advance because that way I roll out of bed at 4:20. My clothes are there, I just put my clothes on I brush my teeth and get in the car and go to the gym. And then I come back and I build in a little time so that I can do some meditation, reflection. Read a scriptures. Do a quick look at my day, get my time to prep and get in the right mindset. And then get ready for work and then I'll go to work. So that's kind of how I start my day.

Naomi Castro

That's great. Yeah. And then and we hear how you end you. You've told us how you end your day. You have a 10:30 appointment for bed.

Greg Peterson

I do, I have a 10:30.

Naomi Castro

Is there is there a playlist or a song that you're you're listening to a lot now lately?

Greg Peterson

You know, it's funny as I am, I love alternative, so I'll listen to, I love the beat, I love the crazy. So I listened to that a lot. But I've done a lot of Broadway.

Naomi Castro

Excellent.

Greg Peterson

So, Dear Evan Hansen.

Naomi Castro

I don't know this.

Greg Peterson

It's, it's a story that talks a lot about suicide. That talks about truths and relationships in pieces. But there's songs there's a lot of songs there about not being alone. So, those tend to run through my head a lot. You know, about caring thinking for others. So I think it's where my head’s been lately kind of in that space. And then of course, we have some good Disney remakes come out lately. So a lot of the Aladdin, Lion King. I, I use my niece and nephews excuses but I'd listen to it without them.

Naomi Castro

I was in the car this morning with my six-year-old niece. We were blasting Taylor Swift. And, and yeah, and my son, my 11-year-old has been singing every single song from Aladdin. Yeah. Excellent.

But that's not what you listen to you when you work out when he listened to you when you work out.

Greg Peterson

Oh, I listen to alternative. Fast something, something with a beat.

Naomi Castro

I've started measuring my run, I don't run as often as I would like to, but when I run, I measure not in distance, but I just keep the extended remix of Bangarang by Skrillex, it just on repeat, and so I know I've gone about a mile, it takes me like three and a half's Bangarangs to go a mile.

Greg Peterson

That is great.

Naomi Castro

I wish I could go a little faster. We'll see.

Okay, so I have a couple of rapid-fire question. Don't think too much about it. Coffee or tea?

Greg Peterson

Tea.

Naomi Castro

What kind of tea?

Greg Peterson

Just got a coca, coca tea.

Naomi Castro

Oh.

Greg Peterson

So I was just in Peru and so for altitude yeah just wonderful,

Naomi Castro

Fantastic. Beatles or Rolling Stones?

Greg Peterson

Beatles.

Naomi Castro

Favorite ice cream flavor?

Greg Peterson

Chocolate chip cookie dough.

Naomi Castro

And what is the best $100 or less you've ever spent?

Greg Peterson

Oooohhh.

Naomi Castro

Yeah, that's a tough one.

Greg Peterson

It's a tough one. So, I have a bit of, I like to call it kind of connoisseur, but it's really snob, when it comes to chocolate. And my, my brother and I we did a trip to Germany, and we spent $90 on chocolate and brought a home of full carry-on completely full of Swiss, German, Austrian and ate 40% of it gave 60% of it away. It was heaven.

Naomi Castro

Well, that's funny because my last question is, what's your guilty pleasure?

Greg Peterson

It’s definitely dark chocolate.

Naomi Castro

Is there a particular domestic brand new or something that's available domestically that you might?

Greg Peterson

So I would say that I, so of course of Dove dark chocolate is a good staple. You can find it our Ritter, R-I-T-T-E-R, they do a great dark chocolate peppermint, and they do a milk chocolate coconut, which is really good. And then of course, Ghirardelli and Lindt are always good for fall backs as well.

Naomi Castro

I wish this was videotaped because your eyes just light up when you talk about dark chocolate.

Greg Peterson

I know. It's gonna be my, so I have two friends, one of my friends who left the community college world and became a chocolate chocolatier.

Naomi Castro

That's possible? That's a pathway?

Greg Peterson

And another who, another friend of mine who is also chocolatier and has just, is booming into corporate and creating. So my goal is to find enough friends that I can find some service job I can do and support them in their industry.

Naomi Castro

That sounds like a plan.

Greg Peterson

Yeah.

Naomi Castro

But no time soon.

Greg Peterson

No, no, no, no. I'll do retirement in 23 years. Something like that.

Naomi Castro

Excellent. I approve. Greg, thank you so much. This has been lovely. I really appreciate your time.

Greg Peterson

Thank you. This is fun.

Naomi Castro

Life happens and we know that, so plan around it. Well, maybe you aren't ready to get up at 4:20 in the morning, but Greg is. The book, Greg recommended, Radical Candor, which I read soon after this interview, that and links to some of the things including the chocolates he mentioned are all in the shownotes. And you can check out the transcripts at Castropod.com

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